On Monday, June 10, celebrity chef David Chang joined Chris Shepherd for the last edition of season one of Table to Stage, Shepherd’s conversation series that began last fall. And boy did he have a lot to say.

Over the course of almost two-and-a-half hours, the two friends touched on a wide range of topics, beginning with Chang’s initial interest in cooking; the opening of his first two restaurants, Momofuku Noodle Bar and Momofuku Ssäm Bar; and his transition from chef and restaurateur to a media mogul who hosts a podcast and has produced multiple food TV shows, including his current Netflix series Dinner Time Live with David Chang. Fueled by a meal at Candente — Chang cited it as the best thing he’s eaten in the past month — and sipping Topo Chico, Chang was relaxed, reflective, expansive, and very funny.

After watching a recording of the entire program, CultureMap has pulled out a few of the most choice nuggets that show both Chang’s keen insights into the restaurant world and the deep bond that exists between two chefs who, as Chang says, have “hung up their whites” and moved from the kitchen to other projects — in Shepherd’s case, raising money for the Southern Smoke Foundation, writing about wine and other topics for CultureMap, restaurant consulting, and hosting his Eat Like a Local TV show on KPRC 2.

Read on for the anecdotes that entertained the sold out crowd. To those feeling a little FOMO, take heart; Shepherd and his team are working on another season of Table to Stage. To those who are going to aggregate this content for other publications, please note that we spell CultureMap as one word with a capital M in the middle.

Deciding whether to go to culinary school

David Chang: I hated what I was doing so much I got super drunk at the office party in '99 and I told them how much I hated working there. That’s how I got into cooking. I knew I needed to give it a shot … I needed to burn every bridge to make sure I couldn’t go back.

Chris Shepherd: I didn’t try much out. I got kicked out of Tulsa Junior College and then took a job as a dishwasher.

Chang: By the way, washing dishes. I tell everyone. If you get a lot of questions, 'hey, I have a friend who’s thinking about the culinary arts.' If you have anybody who’s thinking about going to culinary school, tell them to get a job washing dishes,

If you love it, it’s for you. If you hate it, it’s probably not for you.

Creating the signature bo ssam dish — a slow roasted pork shoulder with oysters, sauces, and butter lettuce for wrapping — for Momofuku Ssäm Bar

Shepherd: The bo ssam. When you guys first put that on, how long did that take to happen? I’ve always done a family-style dish and it kind of works, but you had people lining up for it.

Chang: It starts with working garde manger for Tom Colicchio. Anytime a VIP would come, ‘get out the copper, Chang.’

[Working as garde manger], you’re in charge of charcuterie and pate and salads and shellfish and oysters. You’ve got to make special canapes for the group, and you’ve got to do it on the fly. Then I’d have to assemble this triple-tier copper that’s not even supposed to be stacked. Open up 60 oysters. I could do that fast. It wasn’t what I was fearful of.

What I was fearful of is they’d bring that into the dining room, and every table would go, ‘I want that.’ My night was screwed. I’m assembling these things all night. They’re happy cause they’re charging $700.

That’s what I learned. You know what rich people want? What they can’t f—ing have. It was a holy shit moment.

People didn’t know what bo ssam was. I made up the word ‘ssäm’ with the umlaut. It didn’t exist. I just thought it looked funny. I put an umlaut over an A. It’s ‘Ssäm Bar.’ Let’s do bo ssam.

We’ll do it with butter lettuce, cause I was putting it in burritos. We’ll pop open some nice oysters. That’ll be bo ssam. Technically, I’m not wrong. It’s all the same ingredients.

When we decided to do real food throughout the day, I couldn’t serve that. The pickup is so f—ing long. You can’t do that at prime time hours.

I’m going to offer it at a no reservation restaurant. The only way you could get a reservation was by booking the bo ssam, which was only available at 5 pm and 10:30 pm.

I would seat more at 5 pm. By the time you get a few courses, I’d always try to time the bo ssam at 7 pm when all the rich people would come.

‘Can I have that? It looks amazing.’ Oh, you can’t have that. You have to make a reservation.

That was the game we played. I don’t think I’ve ever told that story in public.

Shepherd: I had a restaurant where we’d do family-style things. Put it on social media. I only have two of these. Eight people want it. Well, I actually have 10, but we’re not gonna talk about it. Shit works.

Chang: People want what they can’t have. That’s the restaurant game. That’s the sneaker game. That’s the everything game.

On the portrayal of Houston and New Orleans in an episode of his Netflix series Ugly Delicious

Shepherd: Ugly Delicious. We got to film that together. It showed Houston in such a good light. I had a hard time going to Louisiana after that.

Chang: This is how much I love Houston. I sacrificed my relationship with the city of New Orleans. They were not happy.

I said you’re stuck in tradition.

Shepherd: There was a time where I had a love-hate relationship with that city, cause it felt like it was all kind of the same.

Chang: You know who doesn’t like hearing that? The city of New Orleans.

Shepherd: But they do. When you get tourism, they go to the newer restaurants , but they still go to Galatoire's and Commander’s and the traditional places. It’s not a bad thing

Chang: I truly love Houston, cause it’s f—ing weird. All the things that aren’t supposed to make sense, and it makes sense. Take a little of what’s happening there — [New Orleans] did not like that.

Shepherd: I once said Houston is the new Creole city. They didn’t like that either.

On Chef Paul Carmichael, formerly the chef at Momofuku Seiobo in Sydney, Australia, taking a new leadership role at Momofuku

Shepherd: You just brought somebody back into the realm. This is very inside baseball. Congrats on Paul Carmichael coming back home.

Chang: Paul is one of my close friends.

Shepherd: I offered him something to come back. He’s a living legend. He said, 'man, I’m just going to hang out here for a little while.'

Chang: Paul is one of the very best. He’s widely loved, widely pursued. Everybody wants him back. He is legitimately considered one of the best chefs in the world.

Paul taught me so much. He tells me you’re an idiot Dave more than anyone else. He wanted to prove me wrong. What I didn’t connect was — Paul, whose thesis at the CIA was on the slave food of the Caribbean — I didn’t realize one of the things he couldn’t do in New York City was making Caribbean food because we didn’t have the ingredients.

The one thing that Sydney has is tropical fruits and vegetables that are analogous to what he had in Barbados. He made the most interesting restaurant in the world. It was super experiential, but it wasn’t this bullshit of what is happening, why is this so long. It was so delicious.

He’s coming back. I don’t know what the proper term is. He’s going to be the creative head visionary of Momofuku going forward. He’s going to take over the old Ko space on 8 Extra Pl. I can’t imagine anybody I could ever wish to handle the legacy of Momofuku and all things creatively and the direction we’re going to go than him. That guy can cook anything and everything. I hope you’ll all be tasting his amazing flavors.

More than his ability to cook, that guy is one of the best leaders and developers of talent. Way better than myself or anybody else I’ve ever met.

Shepherd: He’s literally a living legend. And just a nice human being.

On winning $1 million for the Southern Smoke Foundation on Who Wants to be a Millionaire

Shepherd: Speaking of nice, couple years back, you were on this show called Who Wants to be a Millionaire. True generosity and human nature. Dave’s the first person to ever win the Celebrity Who Wants to be a Millionaire, and he donated it to Southern Smoke.

[Standing ovation]

Chang: I’m so happy that was able to happen. That was peak bad times. We didn’t know if we were going to have a restaurant industry. There was a lot of charities popping up. No one could say at the time, but I just didn’t know how many were legit. There was one I knew definitively was legit and that was going to help people in the industry out in times of need, and that was Southern Smoke. It was truly a no brainer.

The reason Jimmy asked me. It was a crazy time to get on stage. There was no audience. He’s, like, ‘David, you know the reason I asked you to come on?’ I said, why? ‘Well, if you happen to get to a $1 million, you’re the only crazy person I know who will actually go for it. Cause I know you’re a degenerate gambler.’

I didn’t realize that I had an opportunity to not answer the question. In my head, when it was all happening, that wasn’t an option. I didn’t realize I could look at the question and decide. I thought I had to decide before.

A lot of the things I knew from living my life. What I didn’t know was, to paraphrase, which president when he moved into the White House with his wife was deathly afraid of electrical outlets? It was Ulysses S. Grant, somebody else, somebody else, and Harrison, who I didn’t think was even a f—ing president.

All I knew was Ulysses S. Grant was a red herring. I called Mina [Kimes, an ESPN football commentator]. It took me so long to read the question that Mina answered with her question. ‘Harrison?’ And it cuts off.

I didn’t know I had time to walk away. Half a million dollars for Southern Smoke. I asked Jimmy if anyone had tried for it before. Basically, no one had ever done it. Chris is in my consciousness. ‘Take the money and go home.’

I have to go for it. I’m a degenerate gambler. The other part was, if I miss this, and I think there’s a 75 percent chance, the embarrassment would be so intense on me that it would be positive and raise awareness for Southern Smoke

Shepherd: We’ve never talked about this until right now.

Chang: That was my calculus. Yeah, it’ll be good. So I said Harrison. I just guessed. Unfortunately, that’s my thought process of what happened.

Shepherd: The awareness that came from that. You want to talk about need in the food and beverage industry. That year alone we granted out $6 million. That’s crazy. Thank you for believing in us and what we were doing.

Chang: Jimmy did also say, you know why no one else goes for it? It’s for charity. Half a million dollars is so much money for a charity.

Shepherd: I’d have taken the $35,000 either way. [Editor’s note: $32,000]

On barbecue brisket and the future of Texas barbecue

Chang: Brisket, can I say this?

Shepherd: It depends on where you’re going. I’m okay with it.

Chang: I love brisket. But is it overrated to a degree? I love brisket. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want the f—ing lean part. The deckle’s too fatty.

I can have a whole bunch of short rib. You know what I love more than brisket? Chuck roast. It’s got nine different muscles. You don’t see that in barbecue. How come?

Shepherd: Traditionally, before it was brisket, it was shoulder clod.

Chang: What a great name. F—. ‘Shoulder clod.’

Shepherd: And right in the middle of that shoulder clod is where chuck roast comes from. That was barbecue. Then we got into brisket. I think you can probably blame Aaron Franklin for no one being able to eat or cook brisket ever again.

Chang: Talk about someone who changed the game. F—ing Aaron Franklin. If he wasn’t such a nice f—ing guy.

Shepherd: People ask, ‘how good is your brisket?’ I say, ‘how fast can I drive?’ I’m going to go to Truth or Feges or Gatlin’s or Franklin. I can go to all four of them and be home and that brisket still won’t be done.

Chang: I’ll tell you right now. Today’s the day. Shoulder clod is coming back.

Shepherd: All of a sudden people will be walking into H-E-B. ‘Can I get a whole shoulder clod?’

Chang: I’m not trying to make anyone mad. There are other parts of the cow that are delicious. Let’s take it easy on brisket. Bavette’s great. I can guarantee you in two years, cover of Texas Monthly, ‘Shoulder Clod is Back. Brisket is so 2020.’

On the challenge of wanting work/life balance but also making the sacrifices necessary to achieve greatness

Shepherd: One piece of advice for the next generation of chefs. You said something backstage.

Chang: It’s no one’s fault here. Many restaurants are working 40 hour work weeks. It happens in other professions. I talk to doctors and surgeons and other people where you have to have some kind of tutelage and are trying to acquire a skill set. In cooking — I can’t speak for any other trade or skill set — it’s about repetition and the hours you put in.

I think having a work-life balance is so important. But at the same time, it’s hard to become great at something. When I say 40 hours, it’s fine if it’s 40 hours at one restaurant. I would still spend 40 hours at another restaurant. Or I would spend 40 hours at the equivalent on a knowledge basis. Work at a cheesemonger or whatever.

If your singular focus is on food, you have to be a sponge and absorb as much as possible. You can’t do that in 40 hours. Even a 50 hour work week.

I don’t know what the answer is. For the generation that’s coming up, it’s not their fault. The reason I say that is sometimes they can’t even come in on their day off. You’re not allowed to. Even if you want to, you can’t.

This is when I sound like an old person. The probability of becoming really f—ing great at it can’t happen with a 9 to 5 mindset.

Shepherd: I say, how much are you going to read? Maybe there’s food videos where you’re learning stuff. Working two jobs sucks.

Chang: It sucks. I talk about this sometimes, but I can see how it’s a controversial statement. I don’t mean it to be demeaning to the younger generation. I don’t want to seem like it’s generational. It’s harder than ever to be creative today because of all the information. What’s changed is access to information. I don’t like the word 'democratize.' I think that’s for people going through revolutions.

Learning how to cook. Learning what’s in a restaurant. That used to take years. People wanted to learn how to make a dish from Wylie Dufresne. They’d have to spend a year there to make one of the dishes. Now you can get that in a book or a magazine, put it into ChatGPT, watch a YouTube video, whatever. People used to have to work for Alain Ducasse in Europe to learn how to cook these things that you can just get on your phone right now. That’s amazing, but we’ve lost the struggle that I think made food different.

Food is much better today than it’s ever been, but I don’t think it has that magical quality of ‘I don’t understand.’

Now, if I’m starting out, I can work for Chris Bianco. I can go here and there. I’m going to have the most rock solid resume of how to make pizza. Without any missteps. Without any mistakes.

I’m simply suggesting, it’s the pitfalls, the mistakes, the f—ing wrong turns, that also make delicious, original, interesting food. We’re missing that, because we’re going as the crow flies and every f—ing recipe.

Shepherd: When you start to think about it like that, it changes the way food can be.

Chang: That’s what I love. I love what’s not supposed to be. I love the anomalies. The what the f—. We need more of that. Less of the same. We’re all part of that. Making things the same. It’s easy.

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Portions of this interview have been edited for length and clarity.